Living Marketing
David Ko has been in the Asia marketing scene for over 30 years, currently working at global agency Ruder Finn managing their digital and branding arm, RFI Asia. Says David, "The thing I love most about people in my tribe is their deep understanding of how branding and communication works, how perceptions are shaped, and their well-honed BS-meter." Conversations with guests can cover any number of topics, but always originate from the distinct perspective of a marketer, or someone for whom marketing is a huge part of life.
Living Marketing
Kate Wood: Advancing Workplace Wellbeing and Inclusivity in Asia
Throughout the episode, our in-depth conversation traverses the intricate terrain of Diversity and Inclusion in Asian corporate landscapes. From the groundbreaking Pride Lions of HSBC to the evolving focus from equality to equity, Kate generously offers her insights into the balance of respecting diverse cultural contexts while promoting essential rights. We also unpack the often-hidden costs of presenteeism, exploring its tangible impact on mental health and, by extension, organizational productivity. Listeners stand to gain a richer understanding of how inclusive practices not only enrich corporate culture but also bolster the bottom line.
As we round off the discussion, Kate's reflections on her career progression and the transformative power of mentorship offer a heartfelt glimpse into the personal side of corporate leadership. Addressing gender equity and even the taboo topic of menopause in the workplace, we touch on the critical role companies play in nurturing not just careers, but the whole person. Kate's story is a testament to the fact that when an organization commits to Diversity and Inclusion, it's not just the workforce that flourishes—business thrives, and so does the human spirit within it.
Hi Kate, welcome, welcome to the Living Marketing Podcast. Very thrilled to have you as a guest. Finally get our second series launched and we've got a good lineup of guests this year, so I'm very excited. I think a lot of people will be very intrigued by your career, so I want to start off by talking about that. Can you maybe tell us a little bit what you currently do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. First of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be part of this amongst so many amazing other guests. So I look after diversity, equity and inclusiveness for Asia Pacific Financial Services at Ernst Young. So I look after about 10,000 employees across APAC and then also work across a lot of our clients in the financial services space and community partners to have a big social impact in the DNI space.
Speaker 1:Now, not a lot of people consciously choose a career in DEI, so I'm intrigued how did you build your career or point your career in this direction? Was it a conscious decision?
Speaker 2:It's quite a long story. My background is I studied law at university and I spent the last 10 years working in risk and compliance within banks, which I loved. I really loved that kind of career trajectory that I was on. However, in 2013, I found a lump in one of my breasts and was diagnosed with, luckily, very early stage breast cancer. Following this, I had two surgeries and a course of radiotherapy and was able to make a full recovery, but I really see that as kind of a turning point for my career and also a lot of my kind of values and beliefs, I suppose.
Speaker 2:Following that, I went undiagnosed for a while, but I did have a period of depression and anxiety and when I kind of finally decided to seek support, the first place I actually turned was the workplace. This was 2017, so still when mental health wasn't really being talked about in Hong Kong and I found it really hard to understand what support was available publicly or privately and what was covered by the workplace as well. My workplace at the time, hsbc, was incredibly supportive, but it really led to my interest in corporate mental health and creating happy, healthy teams that are more efficient, more effective and more likely to kind of stay with an organisation. So that was kind of a turning point for me and after that, no matter the role, it was really all about people for me and it ultimately led to me pivoting from a career of risk and compliance to now a career as a D&I professional.
Speaker 1:So first of all, I want to thank you for being so candid about mental health, because one of the things that really worries me about mental health is the fact that, especially in Asia, we don't like to talk about it. There's a stigma attached among a lot of us Asians, you know, primarily from a Northern Asia culture, and so I think it's great you're speaking freely about this and I keep telling people it's very important for people with mental health challenges, whether it's depression and so on, to actually let the world know, because that's where the support and the help comes in. So thank you for that. So you have a basically a health scare right and that pivot from risk and compliance into wanting to help other people in the corporate world. Was that because you felt that you were reminded of the fragility of life and you felt that you needed to seek new purpose in your life? Or was it just kind of like a graduate transition, because you got help and therefore you wanted to help other people as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think more of a latter. So I love working in corporate environments and I did kind of dabble with the idea of, you know, leaving and doing something more in the wellbeing space. But I really just became really interested in the business case for having wellbeing as part of a workplace strategy and I think, coming from a business background rather than a HR background as well, that's something that I'm really interested in in my job now. So you know the financial savings that you can have when you have a diverse, inclusive workforce that talks about wellbeing, as you said. So it was a gradual shift.
Speaker 2:To start with spoke to some of the leaders at HSBC about workplace mental health and what we could do more of, and they suggested I set up an employee resource group. I hadn't really been part of an employee resource group before, so that was a journey but one of the most powerful mechanisms to create a sense of belonging in the workforce. So for anyone listening that hasn't been part of an ERG and is in a big organization, I highly recommend that you do join one. So I started an employee resource group that was kind of around mental health, physical health, disability and caregiving and it really took me on such a journey, learning about all of these areas because I had very limited knowledge just in mental health. So then, learning about, you know, caregiving responsibilities a lot of people in Hong Kong have where they have elderly family members, for example, and the challenges that you know people have where they have visible or invisible disabilities.
Speaker 2:Somewhere like Hong Kong, where there's such a taboo associated with it and not just for employees, right, also for customers somewhere like HSBC, how can we make our products more accessible for people and be better for our customers? So I found that whole financial vulnerability side of things really interesting as well. So it was a slow journey and I tried to bring it into my work as well. So when I was working in risk and compliance, managing a team, I was bringing it into my, my people management on a day to day basis and also, you know, looking to conduct some of my work in a way that looked to organizational culture as well. So, yeah, slow transition, and then ultimately, I went on parental leave, gave me a bit of time to think and I thought why not try diversity and inclusion as a career Given? I've kind of built up all this experience over time in the role, like I am now where I'm focusing on financial services. Given my business experience, it just seemed like the perfect fit.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of talk right now about this looming mental health challenge, especially among young people, so people age between, say, 18 to 25. There are some very scary statistics that have come out from the UN and I think it's just going to get worse. I think you know young people today. They face a lot of existential problems, so I think that kind of leads to a sense of despair and I think you know it's also connected to the kind of global drop in the fertility rate and so on and so forth. So in your work at EY, for example, do you work with a lot of young people First of all? Do you see that as an issue? Do you see that reflected in a lot of the people that you talk to in your daily work? Do you sense this rising challenge among young people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. I think we see it in a number of ways through our work, so through the community partners that we work with. So you referenced some of the statistics around youth mental health in Hong Kong and organizations like Kelly Support Group, like Mind, have done a lot of research on that. So we're constantly trying to work more with those organizations. Kelly does a great charity walk which is coming up in February for anyone listening, called the Weaselalk, which is all about awareness around youth suicide and youth mental health, which brings a lot of awareness to the issue. So we always try to participate and shed a light on those support mechanisms.
Speaker 2:But I think we also see it through that cross-generational lens that we put on our employee base, so EY and professional services in general. I think something like 70% of our workforce is under the age of 35. So we have a lot of young people coming in fresh grads and we do see a difference in the way that they like to work to protect their mental health. So definitely there are statistics around poor mental health in young people but we are seeing it being made more of a priority and if you speak to some of the recruitment agencies in Hong Kong and I know Randstad's done some amazing work about this. When they ask people what they want from employers, it's about mental health support, it's about flexibility. So definitely we see these younger generations demanding that from their employers, which I think is great because, to your point, we have to create a workplace where people can thrive and talk about mental health and be at their best. So the fact that people are asking for that now, I think is fantastic.
Speaker 1:Now within DEI space, obviously, well, maybe not so obvious. I think a lot of people are younger or otherwise. They encounter challenges within the workplace, right? Whether it's gender minorities, women and so on. Do you see that as something that needs to be taken into consideration in your daily work, as you, for example, evangelize about respecting and embracing diversity? Do you feel that that helps, and how does it actually help?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, definitely. So a lot of organizations sits diversity and inclusion and wellbeing and mental health separately and mental health often sits within total rewards in an organization which can make it quite operational. You can kind of see why organizations do that right, cause it's about the benefits side of things. For us at EY, we really try and underpin our whole DNI strategy with a sense of belonging, and when we've done research into belonging and what belonging means to people, it's all about psychological safety. So therefore you can't have an effective DNI strategy, you can't have be protecting people, without making sure that they feel that sense of psychological safety, which is all about wellbeing right and mental health support. So it's absolute bottom line for me when it comes to the work that I do.
Speaker 1:So now I'm curious in terms of just how well DEI or DNI is embraced within the corporate world, the various DEI professional norms that I've spoken to. They've all said that there are varying degrees of challenge within their respective companies of getting senior management to embrace it or even understand it. Is that something that you feel we need to do more work in terms of just getting not treating DEI as just a box to check, but seeing the very fundamental business benefits of it? Do you see an issue here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's still a work in progress, right? So my frame of reference is quite positive because I've worked at two organizations that are absolutely powerhouses in the DNI space HHSBC and Ernst Young. And you know, at EY we sell people. Our commodity is people and services. So we have to make sure that our people are at our best and they feel that sense of belonging. We know that people are more likely to stay within the organization if they feel a sense of belonging. We know that there are significant financial savings attached to that as well.
Speaker 2:So from a business perspective, we've done the research like we're very much aware of that. We talked to all of our clients about it. But I think when you look at smaller organizations it's not being prioritized. And if you look at kind of the asset management industry, for example, where you've got organizations that have maybe less than 10 employees, how do they then prioritize diversity and inclusion? Or even where do they start with a DNI strategy? I totally understand, because it can be overwhelming. You can't suddenly put in place five different ERGs looking at five different elements of DNI if you only have 10 people. So I think a lot of the DNI strategies and tools have been catered towards these large organizations, and now I think it's about how do we help small organizations with getting started on the journey as well.
Speaker 1:I may be stereotyping here about Asian companies or Chinese companies, whether they're in Hong Kong, mainland China, or elsewhere in Asia. Is there a culturally grounded resistance to these ideas, and what are some of the things that we can do to help change those hearts and minds?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think there's necessarily a resistance, but it's just very evident, living in Hong Kong and working with lots of different countries across Asia, that there's no one-size-fits-all model and what works for somewhere like Hong Kong absolutely won't work for somewhere like Malaysia or mainland China.
Speaker 2:I always talk about UI research because we love research. We did look at what good DNI strategies looked at and what was important for people across different countries in Asia and it was really interesting. Somewhere like Australia, people feel a sense of belonging or inclusion, where they have personal one-on-ones conversations like this on a weekly basis with your line manager, where you're just checking in, whereas in mainland China it's all about public recognition and respect. So you start to see what a good DNI strategy is gonna look like across those two countries is so different. So you know some of the things that they might put in place in mainland China or Australia might, to each other, look like it makes no sense, but then when you're in that culture or in that market, it would make a lot of sense in terms of what would build that sense of inclusion. So I think it's really about listening, learning, making sure that you really understand what people want and need before you start to implement a strategy.
Speaker 1:You mentioned that you've worked in two companies that are powerhouses in DNI. Was there a risk or a new thing that you introduced in EOI or HSBC that planned out, and what lessons did you learn from it? Any examples of maybe programs that you tried or initiatives that you launched that maybe didn't go down well?
Speaker 2:Ah, good question. I mean there are definite examples. I don't know if I can think of anything off the top of my head, but I think when it comes to you know risks that you take in your professional or your personal life, even if you know it doesn't work out the way you think it will, there's always a lesson learned from it. So I think, with anything like that, it's all about trusting the process and reflecting later on what you might have learned and how you can take that forward within your work, your personal life.
Speaker 2:You know, some of the things that I did, perhaps when I worked in HSBC and employee resource group, compared to now as a leader in DNI, are quite different in the ways that I would be working. So I think it's a continuous learning journey and also, as we've just talked about, the markets that you're working with and the type of things that you might implement that may or may not be suitable for that market. So it's really a constant learning journey and something that I try to take into my work and my life in equal measures, in that you will, you know, take risks or make decisions that might not be the best one at that time, but then there's always a learning journey off the back of that. So I'm a big believer in trusting the process and, you know, really reflecting on that later and what you learned from it.
Speaker 1:Were you at HSBC when they had the Pride Lions incident, the incident where the two lions were kind of painted rainbow colors and there was this sculpture that kind of incited a lot of resistance from the religious right. Were you involved in that, and was that regarded as a success or a failure for the bank?
Speaker 2:I wasn't involved in that project at all because I wasn't actually part of the Pride Employee Resource Group until much later in my time at HSBC. From my experience and my frame of reference, it was only ever had overwhelmingly positive response. So I only really heard about you know some of the resistance that you mentioned after. I know HSBC is incredibly proud of the work they did around the Lions and it was such a big win for the Pride Network and it's still celebrated not just in Hong Kong but globally, and I know those Lions did a bit of an international tour as well. So, yeah, I know HSBC is really proud of the work that they did there.
Speaker 1:I was actually quite impressed by how they basically did not take the bait and didn't enter into a debate with the groups that were opposing it, and I thought that they stuck to the strength of their convictions and I thought that that was very admirable of the bank. But of course, you know, nowadays, especially in Hong Kong, there's always this conversation around oh, what is Western influence? What is foreign influence? And I think there are certain people that will say that, oh, all this talk of you know, ai or LGBTQ, these are Western things that don't apply to us here in Asia. Have you ever encountered those sorts of statements?
Speaker 2:And what do you say to somebody that tells you yeah, you know, I've never really encountered feedback like that before, but I think when you work in an organization that's global or international, you know, like some of the ones that we've talked about, you have to reflect your customer or your client base, and the demographic of those customers and clients is so diverse and so international. We need to make sure that we're offering diverse and inclusive products and teams. So you know there's a big movement. You know, at HSBC, they did so much work around accessible banking and making sure. You know, for example, pami is one of the most accessible products on the market from a digital accessibility perspective. And now at EY, like we want to make sure that teams that we're putting forward to clients are not just visibly diverse but also neurodiverse and that we can have different schools of thought as well. So I think that would be my response to that. You know we have to reflect the demographic that we work with and that is just so diverse.
Speaker 1:I think also, maybe this is a good point to kind of clarify what we actually mean when we talk about BEI and the ANDI, because a lot of people automatically think, oh, it's about women's issues, or some people will equate BEI with LGBTQ. From a bigger picture, what do we mean when we say DEI or DNI, and also what is the difference between DEI and ANDI?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it started off as just DEI and ANDI, then evolved to DEI and now sometimes it's DEIB. High level diversity is all about differences. So you know, whether it's gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, language, disability, ability, neurodiversity there are so many differences that every single one of us has and there's so much evidence that working in an organization that's diverse is just so much more effective. You feel a bigger sense of belonging as well when you're working with people that are similar to you but also different to you. But you know, having a diverse workforce or a diverse community is great, but you need to make sure that they feel included, right. So that's the eye, and you know that's where a lot of this education and engagement comes in to make sure that everybody feels included in the workplace or the community.
Speaker 2:I think that BEI was originally a quality, so you know, making sure that it's an equal playing field for everybody, but that term has evolved over time to equity, so recognizing that people have different starting points, different backgrounds, and then, therefore, they might require extra tools and resources or access to tools and resources in order to have access to the same opportunities. So simple but important difference between equality and equity. And then the BEI which has been added by some organizations, is belonging, which I've talked about a bit already, that everybody, you know, should feel a sense of belonging in the workplace or the community, and that if people feel that sense of belonging they're going to be more engaged, they're going to be more likely to stay with an organization and there'll be like significant financial savings from that as well.
Speaker 1:You mean just from lower staff turnover.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lower staff turnover or, you know, presenteeism as well. When people feel included and feel a sense of belonging, they're more likely to be present at work and, you know, have a positive work attitude. And that's what you want, right with your employees. You want to work for the company and want to have good results.
Speaker 1:I don't think I've heard that word before. Presenteeism. That's really interesting. So does that just mean, are we talking about mental presence? Obviously people work remotely, so much now.
Speaker 2:Both, it could be both. And you know there's some great statistics on this from Mind Hong Kong and City Mental Health Alliance in Hong Kong. I don't have them to hand, but they have some great research on. You know the amount of money I think it's like billions of dollars on an annual basis as loss through presenteeism due to poor mental health. So if people are not feeling mentally healthy and they don't feel like they're able to talk about it, then they're going to be absent from work either physically or mentally. And you know there's something about, you know, whether people take sick days or not. Sometimes it's better if they do, because if people aren't taking sick days then they're just burning out. So the presenteeism just goes. It's even less and fit even longer, right? So it's a really interesting concept in the workplace.
Speaker 1:So let me see if I understand this. So presentism is not a positive thing. It's a case where people may be present and working, but they're not working to their full potential or their full productivity because of all these other issues that we mentioned.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so presentism is obviously positive. You want someone to be present all the time, but I think if we see lack of presentism across organisations where they don't have good DNA strategies, where people don't feel a sense of belonging, where people have poor mental or physical health, I think physical health is very important and we touched upon it at the beginning, before we started recording our physical health and things that we might have had recently. And if you're not being encouraged to have your physical health by your employer, then there could also be a lack of presentism.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and not to put you on the spot, but where do you fall on this remote work debate? Right now, a lot of employers are asking people to go back to the office five days a week. Four days a week, and then there are other companies that are more relaxed about that. Do you belong to the school of let's let people work wherever they want to, because that's the best way to get the best out of them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is a topic I'm very passionate about and, again, ey has shockingly done some research on this and we surveyed 7000 people in Asia Pacific across industries, and we found that hybrid working creates the highest sense of belonging, where people can have a combination of in office versus at home, and then I think after that it was fully remote and then the last one was in the office.
Speaker 2:But again, that differs by market. So Hong Kong was far stand out in terms of hybrid working, whereas in Japan and Korea they do prefer actually being in the office a little bit more. I think the ideal balance that we found on average was three days in the office, two days from home. Personally, I prefer the other way around three days from home, two days in the office, but I think it's what works for you, right? I think it's all about creating a flexible model that fits your lifestyle and creates the most positive work attitude for you. So for me personally, having a young child wanting to stay physically and mentally healthy, and going to the gym, going for a run, being outside is really important for me. Working from home allows me to have a better balance amongst all those priorities but then still having that mix of being in the office one or two times a week and being able to engage with colleagues and have that important social interaction.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. So in my office we only stipulate that people come back to the office once a week, so it's one day in the office, four days working from wherever, and we've consistently had very, very positive feedback from our staff around how they love this flexibility. I'm kind of with you on this. I think I personally am a big believer in people being allowed and trusted to have their own time.
Speaker 2:That's what it comes down to there, right, it's trust.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, exactly, just to do what they need to do to live and therefore, when they have that flexibility and that trust, they will deliver on what is quite often and kind of related to that. You mentioned a young child. What is work-life balance for you?
Speaker 2:I mean it's so hard and live in constant fear of everything coming crashing down. You know, even before having a child, I thought it was hard, and then now it's just another thing in the mix that you have to consider. And another question of yourself like am I being a good employee? Am I being a good partner? Am I being a good mom? Am I being a good friend? Yeah, I find it really challenging. It's constantly evolving as well, and I think it is peaks and valleys, right Like you're constantly having to re-evaluate where you're spending your time, and an exercise I love to do with my team as well is the wheel of life, you know, with all the different segments, and looking at that and where you're spending your time, to understand where you perhaps need to scale back and dedicate more time.
Speaker 2:I think I have to be really vigilant about scheduling time for the gym, time for self-care. You know, date nights and then at the end of the week, reflecting on how much time I've spent with my daughter versus doing other things and trying to then like reach for the next week. But one thing that I live by is that I cannot be the best version of myself unless I'm mentally and physically fit and healthy. So it is really important for my daughter, and also for you know work, that I put myself first.
Speaker 1:Do men struggle with this? Still, is this an issue for men at all? We're in an era now where parenting duties are more balanced between the male and the female. I don't know if that makes sense. Thank you. What do you feel? I don't think they talk about it.
Speaker 2:I don't think men talk about it as much as such a stigma around men's health, right, and we've just come out of November where we spent a month talking about this we still see it, especially in Asia.
Speaker 2:I think the pandemic really brought it to the forefront, like the pressures that men feel in the workplace and at home. I think from the men that I know personally, they definitely do. I'm very lucky to have a partner who is totally hands-on and takes on more than his share. He does all the cooking, all the housework when a fantastic auntie isn't around. So, yeah, I know he feels it and he travels a lot as well, so he's constantly thinking about the balance that he has. So I definitely know they feel it, but it's encouraging it to be more talked about, right, and I think this move to a lot of organisations are doing now to equal parental leave We'll play a big part in that as well, because making a lot of these things equal means that it removes the expectation that the female is the primary caregiver and then allows for this conversation to come to the forefront and it also creates a better sense of belonging for all employees, employees that might be in the same-sex relationships as well that equal parental leave is essential for the good balance.
Speaker 2:So, here in.
Speaker 1:Hong Kong, I think female parental leave is 10 weeks and from men it's either none or maybe a day or two. So are there companies that we could name that have actually tried or are moving towards balancing that?
Speaker 2:The Hong Kong government has made some good moves in this. So now we're at 14 weeks for females and I think it's five days for paternity leave. I might have to double-check that. Lots of companies in Hong Kong are doing amazing work around this. A lot of the law firms are being really progressive in terms of equal parental leave or mirroring UK parental leave. Even HSBC was in the news recently, so they were 16 weeks full pay and they've now extended to 20 weeks for females, which is incredible. I can't remember what it is for men, but it's something like 40 days or something that they've moved to, and Hang Seng's just mirrored that as well. So really great to see more local banks like Hang Seng mirroring their counterparts like HSBC.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of progress. Now, obviously, your role is Asia-wide. Is there a huge discrepancy between major economies like Hong Kong, singapore, versus other economies that maybe have a very large single religious majority places like Indonesia and Malaysia? Is your work harder in some places and easier in some other places?
Speaker 2:I think it's always easier somewhere that you're physically based, so I wish I could be everywhere at once and travel a lot. I think it just goes back to what we were talking about before. It depends on the topic. In somewhere like Indonesia at the minute, they're really interested in gender equity and we've got a big tech consulting business there. So then we're focusing a lot on women in tech and girls in STEM and how we can do work in the community to uplift that gender representation in those more male-dominated fields. So it's really about finding what is interesting for the jurisdiction and also the business, Whereas somewhere like Philippines obviously super progressive from an LGBT inclusion perspective, from a gender perspective. But what we're trying to look at a little bit more now there is some of the more newer areas within gender equity, so we're doing a bit of work around menopause inclusion there, which is something that some of our clients there are working on as well.
Speaker 1:I'm going to plead ignorance here. Can you tell me more about menopause? What does that mean? You mean leave days for menopause.
Speaker 2:So the way that menopause is defined is that it's 12 months after your final menstrual period and it's when a woman stops ovulating, and it's usually around the age of 50. However, for many women or people that go through menopause, it could be much earlier. There's a period of perimenopause before your final menstrual period where you go through the transition and there are so many side effects physical and mental that impact people going through menopause, both personally and in the workplace. So side effects like sleep deprivation, brain fog, self-doubt, depression, anxiety and for some people that could be up to 10 years. This period of perimenopause, this period of transition, is being talked about a lot more now and there's a great organization that's recently started in Hong Kong called the Menopause Space. There's doing a lot of work to educate people on this. We went through some training with the Menopause Space for 10 people across Asia-Pacific financial services and it was really eye-opening to find out.
Speaker 2:People going through menopause could be one of the biggest demographics in the workplace right now it's in the billions of people and typically people of that age bracket are probably women that are going through or going into senior leadership positions. So the people that we want to retain Actually many of these people thinking about leaving the workforce because they don't have the support or the knowledge that they need. So it's a big area of focus at the minute in the d and I fields women's health in general, really. So, whether it's, you know, menstruation, menopause, pre and postnatal the unique stressors that women go through with their health I think things that people are talking about a lot more when it comes to gender equity.
Speaker 1:And are there solid benefits a company can deliver? Apart from education, is anything else that companies can do to make the transition easier?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. I think education is key, not just, you know, across all genders, right, so it doesn't just impact women. It could impact, you know, trans women, trans men, non binary employees, male colleagues, your clients, your customers. So you know I can spotlighting some great work. They just be seized on.
Speaker 2:But in the UK bank they looked at the uniforms that people wearing the branches, because when you go through menopause one of the side effects is hot flushes. So being able to, you know, perhaps alter the uniform a little bit so people are comfortable physically could be a big outcome. Or it's just signposting, like you said. So do people know that the AP is available to people? Know what psychological, psychiatric support they have? You know things like pilates have been known to have good benefits and one of the best ways that people can prepare themselves for the menopause is through resistance training, because there's a big drop in bone density when you go through the menopause, which puts you at a bigger risk of injury, and the only way to increase bone density is through resistance training. So We've got younger people in the workforce. Encouraging them to take up things like resistance training early is a good way to Premanage any menopausal symptoms this is amazing because I didn't even know about that, so I'm learning so much.
Speaker 1:that's new. Other areas that are little known in the work that you do, everyone thinks about you know gender balance and so on are there other little known issues, like menopause, that we should know about?
Speaker 2:For me. We talked about it earlier, but I think, like that, you can't have an affective DNA strategy without underpinning every pillar with mental and physical health. So I think it's really important, if you're talking about you know cultural diversity, that you have mental health support available in different languages. Or LGBT you have like a list of panel doctors are LGBT friendly. If you're talking about ability, you have a list of which psychiatrist will be able to help you with a diagnosis for neurodivergence, for example. So it's so important that you're tying that in across the board. Another area which is coming out a lot in discussions with clients of the minute is around social mobility. People come from different backgrounds and the days of needing a university degree from Oxford University are gone right, and there's some great examples of that coming out across our business. We've got a Social equity campaign where we elevate stories of people across the business and that storytelling has been really powerful to kind of show real examples of those stories, whether it's LGBT inclusion, social mobility, women's health, etc.
Speaker 1:I think mental health is one thing that we talk about a lot, especially, you know, here in Hong Kong. Many employers still have very traditional attitudes towards that of your. If you have mental health issues, you are no longer useful and we don't want to do anything with you, right? So Someone tells the world that they all tells the employer that they've developed depression, clinical depression, or in some cases maybe somebody suddenly realizes, or they've been diagnosed with schizophrenia. I think for a lot of Asian employers doesn't automatic. Well, how do we manage this person out? How do we move them out of the organization? First of all, do you see that attitude still quite prevalent in Asia? Is there anything we can do about that really?
Speaker 2:You still see this kind of mentality where the questions are do you have a fear of speaking up about something for fear of negative consequences? And you still see this with some of these diverse areas you mentioned. So perhaps people don't feel comfortable to come out in the workplace, or they don't feel comfortable to disclose a period of depression or anxiety. Well, they don't feel comfortable to disclose neurodivergence. I definitely see a shift in this. Personally, I have always spoken really openly about my mental health and of course, there's been a few people who had a negative reaction, but I've just quickly disassociated myself with them, whether in the workplace or my personal life to your face.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a line manager very early on in my career who I spoke to about my mental health and she just told me to be less emotional work. I just moved into a different job. Like, I think you're having a good line manager is so important because you spend so much of your life with that person that you know if you don't have that relationship that you want just find another job. It's not worth it. But for the most part I'd say you know, 99% of the time it's been a benefit for me speaking openly about it and people you know, like we talked about earlier. I've said, you know it's great to be so authentic and open and it's the only way to really make a safe environment where other people can do the same. So I think really paying it forward for the younger generation and for other people to speak openly is important for everyone to try to do the same.
Speaker 1:It's one of those things where, if enough people speak up and have a voice, then it changes the general conversation around it as well. Right, I think you know here in Asia a lot of people still kind of shy away from discussing mental health issues because they see it as either a stigma or its career limiting and therefore they don't speak up and the cycle kind of reinforces itself. Because I am surprised that you had a line manager who would tell you through your face that she sees it as a deficiency. But I think the more insidious part of this, of course, is a lot of unspoken prejudice against it and right, and that's kind of like the toughest part to fight. But it's a fight that needs to be fought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think also a lot of the work that we are doing and that a lot of community and client partners are doing is around education that mental health is a spectrum, so it's not something that you have or you don't have. Everybody has mental health, like they have physical health, and on any one day it could be good or bad. And some people tell me that they've never experienced poor mental health and I'm like did you live through the pandemic? You probably did, so you know.
Speaker 2:It's just giving examples of where it can be something that was associated with you know, when you had poor physical health, when you had the flu or COVID, or you know a broken bone, perhaps you had a period of low mental health, or you know a lot of people get sad, seasonal effective disorder. So I don't know if you're in Hong Kong those few days before Christmas, where it was icy cold but I was actually depressed I had to go to Thailand, felt instantly better. But you know it can impact your mood and it doesn't have to be a clinical mental health condition like depression to be poor mental health. It can just be, you know, a rough few days or a rough period, and normalising that conversation I think, creates a platform for people to speak more openly about it, and there are so many positives for being open about this, you know, demonstrating a higher EQ, which will make you a better employee and manager as well.
Speaker 1:So I usually mentioned COVID. I was telling my partner the other day. I didn't realise it at the time, but looking back, I think for three years I was living in a constant state of low-grade anger and it's very interesting looking back. It's just below the surface. Right, you're very frustrated, you're very irritable and but at the time you don't realise it. And now, looking back, I realised I had mental health issues, as I'm sure, many people as well, but we don't really talk about it. Yeah, yeah, and it's kind of sad. This is usually the time when I kind of go back to that. We always end on this, this question if you were able to travel back in time and meet the Kate who was 13 years old, what piece of advice would you give her, based on what you have lived so far?
Speaker 2:You know I think a lot about like the decisions that I've made and the career journey that I've been on. I really wouldn't change anything. So I think what I would tell her is just to trust the process. You know, as we talked about earlier, I'm such a big believer in everything happening for a reason and what is meant for you will come. I'm really like manifesting what you want to happen. So I would just tell her that I learned that a while ago. But you know, there's definitely some angst that could have been avoided if I'd kind of like trusted the process a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Believe in the universe.
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:Do you regret going into risk and compliance? If you could change that.
Speaker 2:Definitely not. I had some great times in that role, some really great times, and you know, in my last role within risk, I was managing 40 people across Hong Kong and Guangzhou, so you know loads of learning there from a leadership perspective. The managers I had during my time of risk and compliance were just incredible and they all elevated me and encouraged me and pushed me to where I am today and gave me the time to do D&I off the side of my desk as well, which allowed me to build up the skill sets to take the role that I have now. So yeah, wouldn't change a thing.
Speaker 1:That's terrific, kate. I'm so glad you've agreed to do this. I think, when I first met you during some of the gay games events, first of all, how passionate you are, how much energy you have and how much you believe in what you do and that really comes through and, of course, you're also one of the most articulate people I know, and so I knew that we were all going to learn a lot from just talking to you. So I just want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing this, and I'm going to make sure that everybody gets a chance to listen to you and learn from you as well. So thank you for doing this.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. It's been great.